Another podcast and No More Contention

Recently I did another podcast with my co-author, James Lucas, on Mormon Book Reviews. We discussed our book, By Means of the Urim and Thummim: Restoring Translation to the Restoration

I encourage everyone to watch it and give feedback, pro or con. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbEmLPcwPXs

As always, anyone interested can email me at lostzarahemla@gmail.com

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Today I’m also announcing a new blog that will be my main focus going forward. The name is No More Contention, taken from Mosiah 1:1.

And now there was no more contention in all the land of Zarahemla, among all the people who belonged to king Benjamin, so that king Benjamin had continual peace all the remainder of his days.

(Mosiah 1:1) 

If the Book of Mormon had been published in the order of translation, this would have been the first verse.

I wish it was.

(In fact, I usually ask new readers to start with Mosiah instead of 1 Nephi.)

The link is 

https://nomorecontention.com/

For now, the link forwards to https://nomorecontention.blogspot.com/. We may expand it into a more comprehensive website eventually.

The objective of No More Contention is to promote understanding and clarity. We’re not focusing on trying to persuade anyone of anything–except for encouraging people to make informed decisions. Too often, people make decisions based on ignorance, but as President Nelson has said, “good inspiration is based upon good information.”

Obviously, people who consider the identical facts reach different conclusions. I’ve set out a spectrum of belief in three general categories, all based on the identical information. We’ll discuss why the spectrum exists and how we can make better, more informed decisions that are congruent with our values and ideals. 

We will discuss multiple working hypotheses by applying the FAITH model of analysis: Facts, Assumptions, Inferences, Theories, and Hypotheses. I’ve explained the FAITH model in previous podcasts and in my upcoming book, The Rational Restoration


Building Zion.
In my view, despite the complaints of naysayers, the Restoration is accomplishing the critical objective of uniting people around the world through faith in Jesus Christ. As I’ve discussed on my Zion blog, Latter-day Saints are dedicating their time, talents and means toward educating people around the world, giving them hope and optimism, economic opportunity, stronger family and community ties, and helping them become self-reliant and confident, all the while bringing them closer to Christ. 

In other words, we are establishing Zion, and it’s awesome.

This is a project I’ve worked on over the years. Not this new blog, per se, but the approach of considering multiple working hypotheses and the psychology of belief, contention, and working toward Zion. 

The events of the last few weeks prompted me to finally set up the website and get going with it.

_____

Apologists. As readers here know, there has been a controversy recently about the activities of certain LDS apologists and their critics. I had hoped the controversy would lead to a positive outcome in terms of a course correction. We were, I thought, finally on the verge of an open dialog, a respectful and friendly exchange of views, and a mutually agreed-upon comparison of multiple working hypotheses.

But it didn’t turn out that way, at least not yet.

Ever since I entered this arena (focusing on the keystone of our religion, the Book of Mormon), I’ve been surprised at the way apologists and critics approach these issues. Emotions seem to prevail, with people giving and taking offense, getting angry, mindreading, etc. Not coming from an academic background, I greatly underestimated the emotional attachment people have to their various theories and worldviews. 

The walls of intransigence and defensiveness are difficult to breach. Surely there is an element of simple self-interest; after all, for the academics, this is an occupation. They have reputations to uphold. They have thousands of students they have taught. Some have elicited donations and funding. To change course now may be unthinkable to them. Maybe even impossible. 

Grievance grifters. And then there are the grievance grifters who, like the media industry, have a business model that thrives from the misfortunes of others. With over 31,000 congregations led by Bishops and Branch Presidents, the grifters can always find a few leaders and members who have made mistakes. But fair-minded people recognize that tactic for what it is.

Flexibility. Everyone who reads my blog or books can see that I favor an open, flexible approach to these issues. After all, I was an avid follower of FARMS for decades. I bought into the whole M2C (Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs) theory promoted by John Sorenson, Jack Welch, Dan Peterson, and the other FARMS people. (In one of my books, I even incorporated SITH until I revised it based on more information.)

I deferred to their expertise because, as a student, I trusted them. Then I was too busy with life to question their assumptions or the facts they presented.

Eventually, though, I had more time to spend on these issues. With the new information I learned, and upon more reflection and thought, I realized the M2C advocates were just that: advocates for a particular point of view. 

Interpreters. Over time, FARMS morphed into the Maxwell Institute, the Interpreter Foundation, and Book of Mormon Central, with BYU Studies providing an academic journal and FAIRMormon (now FAIRLDS) providing a less academic forum for the same group to publish anonymously. These organizations include interchangeable players, which explains why they cite one another (the citation cartel). For ease of reference, I refer to this group generically as the Interpreters because they relish their role as gatekeepers and enforcers of compliance with their own interpretations of scripture and history.

[To its credit, the Maxwell Institute has detached itself from the M2C crowd.]

Despite their pretenses, the Interpreters were not (in my opinion) legitimate scholars who pursued the truth wherever it led (at least not in this arena). I assume they are fully competent, forthright scholars in their other academic pursuits. And to be sure, they followed the conventions of legitimate scholarship in this arena, using a form of peer review, complete with citations (to one another). But they often resorted to sarcasm, obfuscation, sophistry, and censorship to promote their agendas. They focused on combatting nonbelieving critics, but they also used their status as the “credentialed class” to attack fellow Latter-day Saints who disagreed with their interpretations.

As we saw just in the last few weeks through the Peter Pan fiasco, they devolved into a clown circus.

What to do. The question for me became, what to do?

Some of the apologists associated with these organizations became disenchanted with the tactics of the Interpreters and turned into critics. As I understand it, Bill Reel, Kerry Shirts, and Corbin Volluz (RFM) were all believing apologists at one time. They are “former Interpreters.” Now they host critical podcasts in connection with John Dehlin (whom we’ll discuss below). 

Ironically, they use the same tactics they learned as Interpreters to promote their new agendas: sarcasm, obfuscation, sophistry and censorship. But it’s also easy to understand their motivation and bias. It’s easy to see why they are persuasive to some people, just as it’s easy to see why the current Interpreters are persuasive to some people.

It’s difficult to fault either the current Interpreters or the former Interpreters, given their respective worldviews. And no doubt, both groups would strongly disagree with my framing here, but it seems obvious to me.

So, what to do? 

The third way. The key for me was realizing this is not a binary choice. There is a third way.

The one thing I noticed about both the current Interpreters and the former Interpreters: they all rejected what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery claimed, just in varying degrees.

What if, I thought, someone actually accepted what Joseph and Oliver claimed?

I decided to test the hypothesis. That experiment has led to around 10 books and innumerable blog posts, articles, presentations, etc.

So far, at least for me, accepting what Joseph and Oliver claimed has become a solid working hypothesis. One of multiple hypotheses, of course, but the one that makes the most sense to me and best aligns with the evidence. 

It works so well that I feel no “threat” when discussing these issues with either current or former Interpreters. I’m fine with them believing whatever they want and I feel no urgency to have anyone agree with me. 

I don’t object to having conversations with anyone. I’m happy to meet with anyone who is willing and interested to exchange views. And I encourage everyone to make their own informed decisions for themselves.

This led me to the continuum of belief. Because I can’t speak for anyone else or read minds, I based this continuum on what I and the others have published. (I’ve modified it from the one I posted before.)

Me

Current Interpreters

Former Interpreters

Believe what Joseph
and Oliver claimed about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon

Believe some,
but not all, of what Joseph and Oliver claimed about the origin and setting
of the Book of Mormon

Disbelieve what
Joseph and Oliver claimed about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon

This continuum will be the framework for understanding multiple working hypotheses with no more contention.

I’m not going to argue for or against any of these. Instead, I seek clarity and understanding in the pursuit of informed decisions.

People naturally want more specifics about who said what on these issues. I’ll provide quotations, annotations, citations, etc. And I hope anyone interested will send corrections if I misstate any positions. 

_____

Continuum example. This month (April) marks the tenth anniversary of the release of the CES Letter. Again, it’s easy to understand why Jeremy Runnels was frustrated at the lack of answers to the questions he raised. 

We can see how the continuum explains the various responses to the CES Letter.

The Interpreters engaged the CES Letter, but as Runnels pointed out, they agreed on some of the key points, such as SITH (the stone-in-the-hat explanation for the Book of Mormon).

2023 also marks the tenth anniversary of John Dehlin’s “Faith Crisis Report” and the first of the Gospel Topics Essays. The Faith Crisis Report proposed a way of “Breaking the cycle of disaffection.”

1) Mitigating Faith Crisis for Future Generations

Mitigating Faith Crisis for future generations is possible but will require bold steps. The key is to ensure future generations no longer become shocked by gaps between our official LDS narrative and our uncorrelated history.

These so-called “gaps” included SITH vs. the Urim and Thummim explanation that Joseph and Oliver provided. 

The SITH sequence can be summarized this way.

1. In 1834, the book Mormonism Unvailed set out the SITH narrative this way:

The translation finally commenced. They were found to contain a language not now known upon the earth, which they termed “reformed Egyptian characters.” The plates, therefore, which had been so much talked of, were found to be of no manner of use. After all, the Lord showed and communicated to him every word and letter of the Book. Instead of looking at the characters inscribed upon the plates, the prophet was obliged to resort to the old ”peep stone,” which he formerly used in money-digging. This he placed in a hat, or box, into which he also thrust his face. Through the stone he could then discover a single word at a time, which he repeated aloud to his amanuensis, who committed it to paper, when another word would immediately appear, and thus the performance continued to the end of the book.

https://archive.org/details/mormonismunvaile00howe/page/18/mode/2up 

Notice that, apart from the term “old ‘peep stone’,” this description from Mormonism Unvailed is essentially what the Interpreters advocate today. Dan Peterson even made a movie teaching this to the world.

2. Starting in 1834, Oliver Cowdery wrote 8 essays about Church history to refute the claims of Mormonism Unvailed (including Letter VII about Cumorah).

In December, 1835, Joseph Smith wrote a letter to the Elders of the Church about Mormonism Unvailed, including it as part of the “black catalogue” and describing it as a “cloud of darkness.” 

(I’ve posted excerpts of all these rebuttals here: https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2023/04/mormonism-unvailed-then-and-now.html.)

In 1836, Orson Hyde wrote to the Messenger and Advocate, observing that even opposers of Mormonism didn’t quote Mormonism Unvailed because they were ashamed of it.

In 1837, one missionary wrote a letter to the Messenger and Advocate, explaining that Mormonism had little influence.  

The 1838 Elders’ Journal included a discussion of Mormonism Unvailed., noting that the authors, “Hurlburt and the Howes are among the basest of mankind, and known to be such and yet the priests and their coadjutors hail them as their best friends and publish their lies, speaking of them in the highest terms.” 

3. Starting in October 2011, a team organized by John Dehlin conducted a survey and prepared an analysis about the so-called “faith crisis” among Latter-day Saints, emphasizing SITH.

4. April 2013. Runnels released the CES Letter that, among other things, questions the historicity of the Book of Mormon and presents SITH as the “actual” origin of the Book of Mormon instead of the traditional narrative of the translation by means of the Urim and Thummim.

5. August 2013. Dehlin and his team presented the final “Faith Crisis Report” to Church leaders.

6. November 2013. The first Gospel Topics Essays were published on the Church’s website, justifying SITH without even quoting what Joseph and Oliver said about the translation with the Urim and Thummim.

Ever since, on his Mormon Stories podcast John Dehlin has used SITH as a means to undermine faith, citing the Gospel Topics Essays themselves.

The Interpreters also embrace and promote SITH, claiming Joseph didn’t use the U&T or the plates, but differing with the critics in the sense that they claim Joseph was inspired by God, while the critics claim Joseph composed the text and lied about the Urim and Thummim and the plates.

In my view, pursuant to the “third way” on the faith spectrum, what Joseph and Oliver said about the translation makes more sense and is better supported by the evidence than what the SITH sayers claim. 

_____ 

The Ringleader. Recently I suggested I would discuss the ringleader of the clown circus. It’s possible, even likely, that the participants in the Peter Pan fiasco did what they did without the explicit approbation of someone they respect. But they obviously thought their activities were appropriate, and the Interpreters have circled their wagons to support them. We have to wonder, why?

Some may think Dan Peterson is the ringleader, but I don’t see it that way. He’s a great guy, sincere, devoted, smart, working hard, etc. While he’s the founder and face of the Interpreter, and thus definitely one of the leading Interpreters, from my perspective he has always served in the role of the class clown, making wisecracks at FAIRMormon events, writing his blog as sort of a lovable, pompous buffoon who enjoys giving and taking offense. And I assume this is all role-playing on Dan’s part, his effort to promote a brand of apologetics that he somehow things serves a good purpose. The “real Dan,” when not playing a role as an apologist, is undoubtedly thoughtful, considerate, temperate, and generous. That’s why I don’t mind his criticisms. It’s merely theater, a dog and pony show to keep his followers entertained.

I can’t imagine that any serious young scholar would see Dan’s act as an example to emulate. (Although, apparently some do, as we’ve seen in the Peter Pan fiasco.)

I don’t see John Sorenson as a ringleader at all. He was a nice guy, a careful scholar, but didn’t seem to me to be manipulative or vindictive. He just said what he thought and was happy for others to disagree, although he did get a little snippy at times. For example, in his book Mormon’s Codex, he famously wrote, 

There remain Latter-day Saints who insist that the final destruction of the Nephites took place in New York, but any such idea is manifestly absurd. Hundreds of thousands of Nephites traipsing across the Mississippi Valley to New York, pursued (why?) by hundred of thousands of Lamanites, is a scenario worthy only of a witless sci-fi movie, not of history. 

Mormon’s Codex, p. 688.  

We can all see that John was operating under the assumption that the events of the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica. Given that assumption and worldview, it easy to understand why John thought it was absurd to believe that Cumorah is in New York.

But of course we can all see that John failed to challenge his basic assumption. He was blind to his blind spot. 

As are the rest of the M2C advocates.

Which leads us to John W. (Jack) Welch.

_____

Jack Welch is an enigma to me. 

On one hand, he is an exceptionally meticulous scholar. He writes clearly and precisely. He has published probably more useful books and articles than any other living Latter-day Saint scholar. 

I dedicated my book Moroni’s America to Jack and John Sorenson out of respect for their contributions in the field of Book of Mormon studies. Notwithstanding their focus on M2C, they have helped make the Book of Mormon more meaningful and useful.

Jack once published an outstanding analysis of the use of evidence in religious contexts. 

https://rsc.byu.edu/no-weapon-shall-prosper/role-evidence-religious-discussion

As I read it, the article supports the concept of multiple working hypotheses.

In a religious setting, no arbiter prescribes or defines the level of evidence that will sustain a healthy faith. All individuals must set for themselves the levels of proof that they will require. [66] Yet how does one privately determine what burden of proof the Book of Mormon should bear? Should investigators require that it be proved beyond a reasonable doubt before experimenting with its words to learn of its truth or goodness? Should believers expect to have at least a preponderance of the evidence on their side in order to maintain their faith? Or is faith borne out sufficiently by a merely reasonable or plausible position, perhaps even in spite of all evidence? Few people realize how much rides on their personal choice in these matters, and that their answer necessarily originates in the domain of faith.

It seems clear enough that the Lord does not intend for the Book of Mormon, the Bible, or any other sacred matters to be open-and-shut cases intellectually, either pro or con. If God had intended this, he could have left more concrete evidences one way or the other. Instead, it seems that the Lord has maintained a careful balance between requiring people to exercise faith and allowing them to find reasons that affirm the stated origins of his revealed word. Instead, the choice is, then, entirely ours. Ultimately, evidences may not be that important; but then again, it is always easy to say that a parachute is irrelevant after you are safely on the ground.

On the other hand, Jack seems to have an obsession with Mesoamerica that defies explanation or credulity, apart from his long-time friendship and collaboration with John Sorenson.

He created Book of Mormon Central as a center for faithful resources, but he steadfastly refuses to accommodate interpretations of Church history, the text, and extrinsic evidence that support alternative faithful views.

To the contrary: Book of Mormon Central professes neutrality to its English readers and donors while aggressively indoctrinating Spanish-language users in M2C.

Jack has modified Church history to accommodate M2C.

I used to think Jack was operating out of loyalty to John Sorenson, but John has passed away. There’s no excuse, really, for continuing to impose M2C as a litmus test.

Setting M2C aside, Jack’s influence on current LDS scholars is enormous. Through Book of Mormon Central, he controls millions of dollars of funding. 

It’s the golden rule: he who has the gold, rules. 

His organization includes many of the most prominent current LDS scholars.

https://bookofmormoncentral.org/directory

Few if any LDS scholars–certainly none on the BMC team–would dare publish anything that Jack Welch disagrees with in any fundamental way. 

People on the BMC team continue to publicly promote the narrative that Heartlanders are racist nationalists. The anonymous “Kno-Why” articles advocate M2C and unfairly characterize alternative faithful interpretations of the text and Church history. Collaborators at the Interpreter and FAIRLDS continue to use social media to ostracize and belittle fellow Latter-day Saints.

With the snap of a finger, Jack Welch could completely change the course of LDS apologetics. He could recognize multiple working hypotheses, welcome all faithful interpretations, and bring about greater unity and charity for all Latter-day Saints.

He could even tell his foreign language audience the same thing he tells his English audience.

Yet he refuses.

That’s why, in my view, he is the ringleader of the clown circus.

And I’m ever hopeful that will change.

_____

Predictably, my critics (the NPC critics at least) will say that this blog post contradicts the notion of no more contention.

I disagree. I don’t feel or express any anger in any of this. I’m not arguing with anyone about any of this. I’m just saying that people should be open and clear and not resort to surrogates and anonymity to preserve plausible deniability.

I hope to see a change among not only the current Interpreters, but also among the former Interpreters.

The element of entertainment in the various claims and counterclaims generates views. When understood as playful and perhaps tongue-in-cheek, these debates are akin to playing video games; i.e., vicarious violence.

But these debates can also have real-world consequences. 

Hopefully the “no more contention” approach will mitigate the negative consequences and enhance the positive consequences of these discussions.

As we focus on understanding and clarity, we can find unity in diversity and all work together to make the world a better place for everyone.

Source: About Central America

The Interpreters and the Pharisees

I realize most of us don’t want to think about, let alone deal with, the internecine debates about Book of Mormon origins and setting. We prefer to focus on positive topics, such as living the Gospel and sharing the joy, building Zion, etc.
Nevertheless, the Internet is full of these claims going back and forth and it’s important to at least try to clarify the issues to help people make informed decisions.
This table summarizes the spectrum of belief among the three groups who discuss issues regarding the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.

Heartlanders

Interpreters*

Nonbelievers

Believe what Joseph and Oliver claimed about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon

Believe some, but not all, of what Joseph and Oliver claimed about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon

Disbelieve what Joseph and Oliver claimed about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon

When we understand this, it’s easy to see why the Interpreters try to deflect attention from their core teachings by continuing to misrepresent the Heartlanders with false charges of racism, nationalism, using fake artifacts, and all the rest. 
Tomorrow I’ll announce a new approach to clarifying these issues for everyone to see.
In the meantime, here’s a brief observation about the Interpreters.
_____
This year as we study the New Testament, we encounter the Pharisees and Sadducees.** The New Testament mentions the Pharisees 86 times, sometimes with the scribes and sometimes with the Sadducees. Individual Pharisees are mentioned 11 times.
As we read the Bible, we wonder how any group could have been so hard-headed and hard-hearted as the Pharisees. They constructed strict social boundaries, they were easily offended, and they insisted on compliance with their own rules and interpretations. They considered their oral traditions equal in authority with (if not superior to) the scriptures.
They were the Interpreters of their day.
At one point, the Pharisees asked the disciples, “How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?” 
Episode 8 of Season 3 of The Chosen illustrated this mentality when the Jewish leaders asked in amazement, “He breaks bread with Gentiles?”
As I’ve mentioned here before, I had a similar experience with a well-known Interpreter, Mike Parker (aka Peter Pan), who refused to have lunch with me because he was vicariously offended on behalf of Dan Peterson.

_____
The fallout from the “Peter Pan” fiasco continues. It has exposed the core problem with LDS apologetics: arrogance. As self-designated “Interpreters,” Dan Peterson and his followers think they are working for the restoration by gatekeeping, demonizing “the other” (including faithful Latter-day Saints who disagree with them on some issues) and circling their wagons to defend and protect bad behavior.
Most Latter-day Saints have not watched the Bill Reel video about Peter Pan and the other Interpreters, titled “LDS Apologists & The Invention And Coverup Of Richard Nygren,” but they should if they want to see how the Interpreters are polluting the message of the Restoration. 
Naturally, Dan and the rest of the Interpreters don’t want you to watch it. 
They scream “anti-Mormon video” to deter Latter-day Saints from learning about how the Interpreters operate. 
When I first heard about the video, I assumed there would be another side of the story. Even after I watched the video, I assumed there must be another side. I would have welcomed a good explanation that mitigated the problems Bill Reel brought out in the video. But as we’ve seen, the “defense” offered by Mike Parker skirted the issues, disclaimed any responsibility, and boiled down to the old defense no one buys any longer: “it’s anti-Mormon.” 
And, to be sure, I wouldn’t recommend most videos from the Mormon Discussions channel because I find them just as misleading and agenda-driven as the material put out by the Interpreter Foundation. But this video is an exception because it lays out clearly, for everyone to see, the type of shameful apologetics the Interpreters have been engaged in for many years.
The video is long. I’d like to see a 15-minute highlight version that would be easier for people to watch. Here are some still images that summarize some of the points and the people involved.

Some of the Interpreters and their racist “joke” (click to enlarge)

  
Some of the Interpreters’ “jokes” (click to enlarge)
Mike Parker is amused by the racist Nygren persona (click to enlarge)

Dan Peterson and Stephen Smoot play along (click to enlarge)

I had hoped that the Peter Pan disaster would have led to a course correction by the Interpreters, but instead they are doubling down on their demonizing rhetoric as they seek to justify their tactics.
The rest of us can move on to better things as we rejoice in and share the message of the Restoration.
_____
* By Interpreters I refer to the principals at the Interpreter Foundation and Book of Mormon Central who pursue a dogmatic, exclusionary editorial agenda to promote M2C and SITH. They are all undoubtedly fine Latter-day Saints who think they are doing good in the world because they have convinced themselves that their interpretations are correct. 
We discuss the Interpreters on this blog: https://interpreterpeerreviews.blogspot.com/
**There’s a good explanation here:

The Pharisees and the Sadducees were both religious sects within Judaism during the time of Christ. Both groups honored Moses and the Law, and they both had a measure of political power. The Sanhedrin, the 70-member supreme court of ancient Israel, had members from both the Sadducees and the Pharisees.

The differences between the Pharisees and the Sadducees are known to us through a couple of passages of Scripture and through the extant writings of the Pharisees. Religiously, the Sadducees were more conservative in one doctrinal area: they insisted on a literal interpretation of the text of Scripture; the Pharisees, on the other hand, gave oral tradition equal authority to the written Word of God. If the Sadducees couldn’t find a command in the Tanakh, they dismissed it as manmade.

Given the Pharisees’ and the Sadducees’ differing view of Scripture, it’s no surprise that they argued over certain doctrines. The Sadducees rejected a belief in the resurrection of the dead (Matthew 22:23Mark 12:18–27Acts 23:8), but the Pharisees did believe in the resurrection. The Sadducees denied the afterlife, holding that the soul perished at death, but the Pharisees believed in an afterlife and in an appropriate reward and punishment for individuals. The Sadducees rejected the idea of an unseen, spiritual world, but the Pharisees taught the existence of angels and demons in a spiritual realm.

The apostle Paul shrewdly used the theological differences between the Pharisees and the Sadducees to escape their clutches. Paul had been arrested in Jerusalem and was making his defense before the Sanhedrin. Knowing that some of the court were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, Paul called out, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead” (Acts 23:6). Paul’s mention of the resurrection precipitated a dispute between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, dividing the assembly, and causing “a great uproar” (verse 9). The Roman commander who watched the proceedings sent troops into the melee to rescue Paul from their violence (verse 10).

Socially, the Sadducees were more elitist and aristocratic than the Pharisees. Sadducees tended to be wealthy and to hold more powerful positions. The chief priests and high priest were Sadducees, and they held the majority of seats in the Sanhedrin. The Pharisees were more representative of the common working people and had the respect of the masses. The Sadducees’ locus of power was the temple in Jerusalem; the Pharisees controlled the synagogues. The Sadducees were friendlier with Rome and more accommodating to the Roman laws than the Pharisees were. The Pharisees often resisted Hellenization, but the Sadducees welcomed it.

Jesus had more run-ins with the Pharisees than with the Sadducees, probably because of the former’s giving preeminence to oral tradition. “You ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition,” Jesus told them (Mark 7:8, NLT; see also Matthew 9:1415:1–923:51623Mark 7:1–23; and Luke 11:42). Because the Sadducees were often more concerned with politics than religion, they ignored Jesus until they began to fear He might bring unwanted Roman attention and upset the status quo. It was at that point that the Sadducees and Pharisees set aside their differences, united, and conspired to put Christ to death (John 11:48–50Mark 14:5315:1).

The Sadducees as a group ceased to exist after the destruction of Jerusalem, but the Pharisees’ legacy lived on. In fact, the Pharisees were responsible for the compilation of the Mishnah, an important document with reference to the continuation of Judaism beyond the destruction of the temple. In this way the Pharisees laid the groundwork for modern-day Rabbinic Judaism.

 

Source: About Central America

Mike Parker at least opened the door a crack

As I discussed last week on this blog, I appreciate Mike Parker’s feedback on my comparison chart. I credit Mike Parker with opening the door, however briefly, to a more productive dialog. I’m adapting my various comparison tables accordingly in the next iteration, which I’ll announce later this week. 

Obviously I’d prefer having full participation from the M2C/SITH proponents. With Mike’s input, I can see why they don’t like the term “citation cartel,” so instead I will refer to the M2C/SITH proponents from now on as the Interpreters, which I hope they will find less objectionable. 

I include those affiliated with Book of Mormon Central as Interpreters because of their interlocking participation and because BMC, like the Interpreter Foundation, is an advocacy group instead of a legitimate scholarly organization. 

Related to that, I hope the day will come when those who participate with the Interpreter and BMC will reform their approach. Instead of claiming the role of “interpreters” who enforce and advocate their personal opinions and exclude everyone else, they could and should pursue a humble, curious, and optimistic approach that accommodates multiple faithful perspectives.

My objective all along has been to develop a forum in which everyone interested in the Restoration can participate, regardless of background or belief, so long as they seek mutual understanding. 

Contention arises from seeking a “win.” For too long, apologists and critics have been bashing one another. 

For that reason, I also give credit to Bill Reel for exposing the “Peter Pan” hoax that, hopefully, will lead to a more legitimate, less childish and rancorous form of LDS apologetics. 

In other words, everything is awesome and getting better all the time.

Source: About Central America

Compare the fruits of good and evil

Tucker Carlson spelled it out clearly in this 6 minute excerpt from his last speech.

Transcript:
22:16 if you want to know what’s evil and what’s good, what are the characteristics of those? 
And by the way you know I think the Athenians would have agreed with this, this is not necessarily just a Christian notion, this is kind of a, let’s say, widely agreed upon understanding of Good and Evil.
What are its products? 
What do these two conditions produce?
Good is characterized by 
order
calmness
tranquility
peace
whatever you want to call it lack of conflict
cleanliness (cleanliness is Next to Godliness, it’s true it is).
And evil is characterized by their opposites.
violence
hate
disorder
division
disorganization
and filth

So if you are all in on the things that produce the latter basket of outcomes what you’re really advocating for is evil. 

That’s just true.
I’m not going for a religious war, far from it. I’m merely calling for an acknowledgment of what we’re watching.
Full speech on youtube.
transcript of excerpt:
it might be time to start to reassess
18:49
the terms we use to to describe what
18:53
we’re watching so when I started
18:54
Heritage the presumption was and this is
18:56
a very anglo-american assumption that
18:58
the debates we’re having are kind of
19:00
rational debates about the way to get to
19:02
mutually agreed upon outcomes
19:05
right so like we all want the country to
19:07
be more prosperous and free and people
19:09
to be less oppressed or whatever and so
19:11
we’re going to argue about tax rates and
19:13
I think higher tax gets gets us there on
19:14
Keynesian and you disagree you’re an
19:16
Austrian or whatever
19:17
but the objective is the same
19:20
and so we write our papers and they
19:22
write their papers and made the best
19:23
papers when
19:25
I I don’t think that’s what we’re
19:26
watching now at all I don’t think we’re
19:28
watching a debate over how to get to the
19:30
best outcome
19:31
I think that’s completely wrong
19:33
and I’ve come to this conclusion and I
19:35
should say at the outside of an
19:36
Episcopalian so don’t take any
19:37
theological advice from me because I
19:39
don’t have any
19:40
I grew up in the shallowest Faith
19:42
tradition that’s ever been invented
19:45
it’s not even a Christian religion at
19:47
this point
19:48
um I say with shame but
19:51
I’m just saying this is an observer of
19:52
what’s going on there is no way to
19:55
assess say the transgenderist movement
19:58
with that mindset policy papers don’t
20:01
account for it at all
20:03
if you have people who are saying I have
20:05
an idea let’s castrate the Next
20:06
Generation what sexually mutilate
20:08
children sorry that’s not a political
20:09
debate what there’s nothing to do with
20:11
politics what’s the outcome we’re
20:13
Desiring here
20:15
an androgynous population is that really
20:17
what we are we arguing for that
20:19
I don’t I don’t think anyone could like
20:21
defend that as a positive outcome but
20:24
the weight of the government and you
20:27
know a lot of corporate interests are
20:28
behind that well what is that well it’s
20:30
irrational
20:32
if you say well you know I think
20:35
abortion is always bad well I think
20:37
sometimes it’s necessary that’s a debate
20:39
I’m familiar with
20:40
but if you’re telling me that abortion
20:42
is a positive good
20:44
what are you saying well you’re arguing
20:46
for child sacrifice obviously it’s not
20:49
about like oh a team you know a teen
20:50
girl gets pregnant and what do we do
20:53
about that and
20:54
victims of rape I you know I get it of
20:57
course I understand that and I have
20:59
compassion for everyone involved but
21:01
when the treasury secretary stands up
21:02
and says you know what you can do to
21:03
help the economy get an abortion
21:05
well that’s like an Aztec principle
21:08
actually
21:10
there’s not a society in history that
21:13
didn’t practice human sacrifice not one
21:15
I checked
21:16
even the Scandinavians I’m ashamed to
21:19
say it wasn’t just the mesoamericans it
21:21
was everybody
21:23
so like that’s what that is
21:25
what’s the point of child sacrifice well
21:26
there’s no policy goal entwined with
21:29
that no that’s a theological phenomenon
21:32
and that’s kind of the point I’m making
21:34
none of this makes sense in conventional
21:37
political terms when people or crowds of
21:41
people or the largest crowd of people at
21:44
all which is the federal government
21:46
the largest human organization in human
21:48
history
21:49
decide that the goal is to destroy
21:52
things Destruction for its own sake hey
21:54
let’s tear it down
21:56
what you’re watching is not a political
21:58
movement
21:59
it’s evil
22:01
so if you want to assess and I’ll put it
22:04
in on and I’ll stop with this I’ll put
22:06
it in on
22:07
pull it I’ll put it in non-political or
22:09
non-roth or non
22:11
-specific theological terms and just say
22:14
if you want to know what’s evil and
22:16
what’s good what are the characteristics
22:17
of those and by the way you know I think
22:20
the Athenians would have agreed with
22:21
this this is not necessarily just a
22:23
Christian notion this is kind of a let’s
22:24
say widely agreed upon understanding of
22:28
Good and Evil what are its
22:30
products what are these two conditions
22:33
produce
22:34
well I mean good is characterized by
22:39
order
22:41
calmness Tranquility peace whatever you
22:43
want to call it lack of conflict
22:46
cleanliness
22:48
cleanliness is Next to Godliness
22:51
it’s true it is
22:53
and evil is characterized by their
22:56
opposites
22:57
violence hate disorder division
23:01
disorganization and filth
23:04
so if you are all in on the things that
23:08
produce the latter basket of outcomes
23:11
what you’re really advocating for is
23:13
evil that’s just true I’m not going for
23:16
a religious War far from it I’m merely
23:19
calling for an acknowledgment of what
23:21
we’re watching which is not one and I’m
23:23
not certainly not backing the Republican
23:24
party I mean look
23:27
I’m not making a partisan point at all
23:31
I’m I’m just noting what’s super obvious
23:34
like those of us who were in our mid 50s
23:36
are caught in the past in the way that
23:38
we think about this one side’s like no
23:40
you know I’ve got this idea
23:43
and we’ve got this idea and let’s have a
23:45
debate about our ideas they don’t want a
23:47
debate
23:47
those ideas won’t produce outcomes that
23:51
any rational person would want under any
23:53
circumstances
23:54
those are manifestations of some larger
23:58
force acting upon us
24:00
it’s just so obvious
24:02
it’s completely obvious
24:05
and I think two things one
24:08
we should say that
24:10
and stop engaging in these totally
24:13
fraudulent debates
24:15
where we are using the terms that we
24:18
used in 1991 when I started at Heritage
24:20
as if maybe you know I could just win
24:22
the debate if I marshaled more facts
24:23
I’ve tried that doesn’t work
24:26
and two maybe we should all take just
24:29
like 10 minutes a day to say a prayer
24:31
about it
24:33
I’m serious like why not
24:35
and I’m saying that to you not as some
24:38
kind of evangelist I’m literally saying
24:41
that to you as an Episcopalian the
24:43
Samaritans of our time
24:45
I’m coming to you from the most humble
24:49
and lowly theological position you can
24:51
I’m literally an Episcopalian okay
24:55
and even I have concluded it might be
24:58
worth taking just 10 minutes out of your
25:00
busy schedule to say a prayer for the
25:02
future and I hope you will

Source: Book of Mormon Concensus

Backyard Professor and I discuss no more contention

I had a delightful conversation with the Backyard Professor, Kerry Shirts, recently. The video is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkGisbz2k4w

Among other things, we discussed the No More Contention website (https://nomorecontention.blogspot.com/). 

Both of us find this approach of seeking understanding and clarity far more enjoyable and productive than the old model of apologists and critics arguing over stuff, playing gatekeepers, and all the other shenanigans we saw in the Peter Pan fiasco.

At one point, we gave an example of how we completely disagree about a specific topic (a short video by President Oaks), but by discussing our different perspectives we gained a better understanding of one another with zero animosity, offense, defensiveness, etc.

I mentioned that some of the Interpreters had objected that I went on Kerry’s channel in the first place and also objected that on this blog I had included a link to Bill Reel’s video about Peter Pan. They “warned” me against these critics, saying they would use me to attack the Church somehow.

I pointed out that none of the Interpreters have ever invited me to be on their podcasts or radio shows, although they have discussed me there. They’ve never invited me to speak at any of their events or even to their small groups. 

By contrast, Heartlanders have invited some of the Interpreters to speak at their conference. Heartlanders are interested in understanding other points of view. They are interested in clarity. They recognize the value of multiple working hypotheses that help people make informed decisions.

The Interpreters reject all of these values. They don’t want their audiences to know what I actually think. Instead, they filter and misrepresent what I’ve said and written to keep their audiences and followers in line with their M2C and SITH agendas.

It’s pathetic, really. I can’t tell whether the Interpreters don’t trust their audiences or they are so insecure about their own beliefs that they have to control the narrative. Probably a combination.

But it doesn’t matter anyway. Thanks to the Peter Pan disaster that Dan Peterson promoted so heavily, fair-minded people, regardless of their beliefs, can see that the Interpreters’ brand of apologetics is unpersuasive, uncharitable, and undesirable. 

Worse, it does nothing for clarity and mutual understanding.

I look forward to more conversations based on No More Contention. 

I hope some of the Interpreters will join the effort. It would be a welcome change in direction.

But meanwhile, we’ll keep moving forward in a positive direction toward unity in diversity, mutual understanding, clarity, and finding common ground wherever we can as we all strive to make the world a better place and contribute to the progress of the Restoration and all that entails.

Source: About Central America

Outstanding video on unity in the Gospel

This is a powerful message for everyone, Latter-day Saint, Evangelical, or anyone else.

David Alexander’s Message to Future Latter Day Saint Missionaries!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rY7yFuiSnQ

5:59 it is a very sad story actually but it has a happy ending okay because of you and because of Joseph Smith because of Brigham Young and because of the restoration that you are part of and might not even know how precious it is because you’ve been born and raised in it.

_____

8:03 the sad truth is evangelical Christianity is filled with an accusatory fog.

In the Book of Mormon they call it a Mist Of Darkness but it’s an accusatory fog, a fog of accusation against the most beautiful thing on earth–against a restoration–against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

There’s an accusatory fog that dismisses the Latter-Day Saints as just not even being Christians, having a different Jesus a different God. You’ve all heard this kind of thing and and it’s the unquestioned monolithic conversation of Evangelical Christianity to the point that I heard or participated in conversations of this sort hundreds of times over almost half a century.

And never once did I hear one voice raised in opposition to that fog of accusation… 

Going around in circles, dying of thirst in the desert for what you have and I never even thought of visiting a Mormon a Latter-Day Saint Church.

I had all sorts of encounters with Latter-day Saints and they were uniformly, you all were like really nice but that was just proof of how really evil you were! Because if you’re so evil you can appear nice, boy, that’s really dangerous you know. 

I mean this is, it’s bizarre, it’s absolutely bizarre but I’m dying of thirst in the desert and you know the Earth is being flooded with darkness and the Ark of God is right in front of me hiding in plain sight and I can’t even see it 

Source: Book of Mormon Concensus

"Mike Parker" responds to Bill Reel

“Mike Parker” has asked me to remove, or at least modify, the observations I made last week after watching a youtube video produced by Bill Reel about his “Peter Pan” pseudonym. It’s a reasonable request that I’m honoring here, complete with his input that he asked me to address.

In one sense, I agree with Mike’s claim that Bill’s video is opportunistic and makes a mountain out of a molehill. Had Mike and his friends simply made one small (albeit childish) mistake within a larger context of honorable, above-board, cordial and scholarly discussion of issues, I would have ignored Bill’s video. Bill himself probably wouldn’t have bothered making the video in the first place.

But that is not the context in which Mike and his friends acted.

Instead, the activities Bill displays in his video are part of a long pattern of this brand of apologetics, egged on and promoted by Dan Peterson and others who should (and at some level surely do) know better. I assume Bill, as a former participant in these apologetic games, knows this all too well and thus made the decision to call out the behavior.

Because I hope Latter-day Saints generally, and those associated with the Interpreter specifically, will spurn the tactics and antics of the apologists documented in Bill’s video, I found it important to call attention to this persisting problem. Nothing in Mike’s response alters that decision. To the contrary, as you’ll see, Mike’s response demonstrates more of the same counterproductive brand of argument and accusation that is the rotten core of current LDS apologetics.

But fairness requires that his voice be heard, so here it is.

Background. The video explained the saga of “Peter Pan,” including the fraudulent, racist persona that a group of “Interpreters” (shorthand for people affiliated with the Interpreter) created as a subterfuge to hide the actual identity of the infamous “Peter Pan.”

Here’s the link: https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2023/04/clown-world-m2c-citation-cartel-and.html

I had been aware of this “Peter Pan” but I didn’t know the full extent of the chicanery these clowns fine young scholars had concocted. And no less than Dan Peterson not only promoted the Peter Pan persona, but he perpetrated the fraud right in the pages of the Interpreter.

I still find it incredible, even for the Interpreter.

Before the video was released, I had received emails and text messages claiming that the identity of “Peter Pan” had been exposed, and it was Mike Parker. Over the years, several people have emailed me about their suspicions of the “real” identity of Peter Pan. I usually reply that I don’t care because (i) the pseudonym is apt since, like the blogger(s), Peter Pan is a boy who never grows up and (ii) I don’t read the blog anyway because the one time I did, it was so ridiculous I didn’t think any sentient reader would take it seriously.

Plus, I didn’t think then, and still don’t think now, that “Peter Pan” was only one person, although Mike Parker is now taking the fall for the charade.

During my podcast with Kerry Shirts, by which time the Mike Parker connection was widely known, someone asked if I would have lunch with Mike Parker and be friends. I said I would. I remembered that “Peter Pan” had once emailed me years earlier, so I emailed “Peter Pan” and suggested we have lunch when I was in Utah. “Peter Pan” declined.

After I posted my observations about the Bill Reel video, an individual emailed me from the “Peter Pan” account, claimed he was “Mike Parker,” and asked that I remove my blog post about Bill’s video. A series of emails ensued.

At this point, I don’t know who is emailing me as “Mike Parker.” As I mentioned, when I suggested we have lunch when I was in Utah, he refused. I suggested a phone call or zoom conference, but he refused. All I have to go by is an email address for “Peter Pan” and a series of emails by someone claiming to be “Mike Parker.”

I have good reason to question the identity of this individual(s). A couple of years ago, I received similarly aggressive and antagonistic emails from an individual who was using an obvious pseudonym (but not “Peter Pan”). We exchanged several messages as I explained my positions on various issues. I also explained that my responses would be the same regardless of who the person was. Eventually the individual identified himself as a well-known General Authority who has spoken in General Conference. He even gave me a link to his talk. I verified his identity through a mutual acquaintance. Fortunately, he is now emeritus so no one sustains him, but this is some of the history I’ve had with LDS pseudonyms.

At any rate, the “Mike Parker” who has been emailing me wants me to remove my blog post. I told him I’d be happy to correct any errors I made. Instead of working together on this, he posted another aggressively antagonistic criticism on his blog and expected me to read it. When I explained I don’t read his blog, he emailed me his post directly.

Because I agree that the real Mike Parker in Bill Reel’s video deserves to have his side considered, I’ll assume for purposes of this discussion that the “Mike Parker” who has been emailing me is the same Mike Parker featured in the video. But if the real Mike Parker someday surfaces and claims he had been impersonated by whomever wrote the “Peter Pan” emails, I won’t be surprised.

I’m posting the “Mike Parker” material here with a few comments for context. Readers can judge for themselves.

It’s long and tedious, but if I don’t address every point, my critics accuse me of “ignoring” their criticisms, so here goes.

Enjoy.

_____

Comments from “Mike Parker,” aka “Peter Pan.”

Bill Reel’s podcast

On April 14, 2023, ex-Mormon podcaster Bill Reel hosted a 2 hour and 46 minute (!) YouTube livestream with the intent to (from the video’s description) “expose the shocking story of how a group of 5 white LDS apologists fabricated and perpetuated a fictional black apologist, Richard Nygren, to provide cover for one of their own. Through detailed investigation and interviews with key players, we reveal the disturbing truth behind this deceitful act and its coverup as well as the impact it has on those involved and on the Mormon apologetic community.”

The truth behind Reel’s breathless hyperbole is not nearly as interesting or dramatic as he tried to make it, and none of the supposed “key players” responded to his requests for information (unless Reel was referring to Jonathan Neville, in which case I’m not surprised).

[My context: despite this innuendo, I don’t know Bill Reel and I’ve never communicated with him nor have I given him any information. After the video was produced, but before it was released and before I saw it, I did an interview with Mormon Book Reviews about what little I knew and how I hoped that, whatever came out from the video, I hoped it would lead to more legitimate LDS scholarship and fewer childish games such as the Peter Pan saga. After watching Bill’s video, and despite being appalled at what these Interpreters were doing, I still hope for such an outcome.]
In addition to denying Reel’s spin that I or anyone else “perpetuated a fictional black apologist,” I also categorically state that neither I nor anyone else mentioned in Reel’s video made any fake Richard Nygren profiles on YouTube or any other social media platform, website, or online chat.
[Anyone can watch the video and see Mike Parker and his friend discussing the fictional black apologist they named Richard Nygren. Apparently Mike is focusing on the word “perpetuated,” but again, anyone can watch the video and see that Mike not only did not renounce or even object to the creation of Richard Nygren, but he responded as Peter Pan to comments directed at Nygren without clarifying that Nygren was fictional and was not the true person behind Peter Pan. Readers can decide whether that constitutes perpetuating. 
 
It’s not clear how Mike can speak categorically on behalf of the other Interpreters mentioned in the video. Their participation in this fraud gives them plenty of incentive to hide their behavior, even from Mike, and Mike’s participation gives him plenty of reason to protect his friends. Regardless, it was their invention of Richard Nygren that gave an opportunity for anyone to create a fake profile in that name.]

That didn’t stop Reel from “grinning ear to ear” when he found a story he could spin to attack and defame a few Latter-day Saints. And his lackeys naturally ate up everything he said, making equally reprehensible comments in the live chat, including some loathsome attempts to dox me by posting my home address.

[This reads as if written (or edited) by an Interpreter committee, complete with their typical sarcasm, pejorative adjectives and nouns, and the tactic of blaming Bill for the story they themselves concocted. That said, I agree with Mike that doxing is inexcusable.]  
Because of Bill Reel’s video, I’ve received harassing messages from disturbed individuals accusing me of being a racist. Some of these messages have contained what could be considered threats. I won’t post those messages here, as they may be evidence if one of these people decides to follow through on their statements.
[I agree with Mike that such messages are inexcusable, but it wasn’t Bill who created or perpetuated the racist persona of Nygren. It was Mike and his fellow Interpreters who did that, and now they seek to shift the blame to Bill for what they did. Still, Mike has a valid point that it was Bill who produced and released the video, and in that sense he may have instigated some of the harassment. Ironically, he is following Dan Peterson’s example by promoting Peter Pan in the public arena. Bill should and could have made the point that such harassment is wrong. I have no reason to think he would encourage or condone such harassment.]

Normally, I would just ignore Reel’s video—“don’t feed the trolls,” and so forth. These deranged lunatics are obsessed with destroying people who believe in the restored gospel, and they experience no twinge of conscience when they distort the truth.

[More Interpreter committee rhetoric doesn’t clarify the issues. I don’t know Bill Reel and even if I did, I couldn’t read his mind the way Mike does. But I agree with Mike on this: if Bill does seek to “destroy people who believe in the restored gospel” then I deplore that agenda and any related conduct. But I don’t see that in his video. Instead, I see Mike Parker and his friends creating and promoting a fraudulent, racist persona to protect the true identity of “Peter Pan,” whether that identity is Mike individually or his Interpreter friends as a group.
 
Of course, the obvious irony here is that “Peter Pan” has for years published a blog that seeks to “destroy” me as a person who believes in the restored gospel but not in the narratives promoted by Mike and his Interpreter friends. It reveals more about Mike and his friends than about Bill Reel when he writes “they experience no twinge of conscience when they distort the truth.”]  

But then Jonathan Neville jumped on Bill Reel’s bandwagon.

[See what I mean about Mike’s obsession with trying to destroy me?]

Jonathan Neville promotes Bill Reel’s video

Jonathan Neville—who refuses to read anything I’ve written or to watch my interview with Robert Boylan—was apparently more than happy to watch Bill Reel’s podcast, because he posted about it on his blog.

[Mike knows that I refuse to read his stupid blog, but contrary to his assertion here, he also knows I’m happy to read anything he wants to send me directly or in an appropriate forum. He also knows I’ve posted a series of separate articles on this very blog responding in detail to what he has written, but he doesn’t tell his readers that.
 
I saw Mike’s interview with Boylan on Bill’s video. Life is short and I don’t have time or interest to watching the same video more than once.]

In his blog post, Neville asserted:

Prominent members of the citation cartel concocted, promoted and perpetuated a fake blogger persona named ‘Peter Pan’ to attack me on an ad hominem blog that ridicules my family name.

Just about every word of that sentence is false.

  • There were no “prominent members” of anything involved with the creation and maintaining of this blog; it was solely my idea, and I alone am responsible for it.
 
[Here, Mike expects people to take his word for it, despite using a pseudonym for years and despite the active participation of his Interpreter friends in perpetuating his deceit right in the pages of the Interpreter. The participants Bill identified include both the founder of, and one of the most prolific contributors to, the Interpreter.]
 
  • By “promoted,” Neville is referring to Daniel Peterson sharing links to this blog on his own site from time to time. He did this not because he’s been involved in the creation or operation of this blog, but because Jonathan Neville has attacked him and other scholars with weird claims that they’re part of some conspiracy to promulgate “M2C” within the Church.
 
[Mike’s scare quotes seek to minimize the reality that Dan has repeatedly praised and posted links to the Peter Pan blog, thereby actively participating in its dissemination. Without Dan’s promotion, no one outside Mike’s friends would know or care about his blog. We have only Mike’s word that he is the sole author. Mike and other members of the M2C citation cartel speak in terms of “conspiracy.” I have described it as groupthink, silos, peer-approval, etc. I didn’t invent the term “citation cartel,” which has been used to describe the incestuous nature of academic journals. The record speaks for itself, as I have documented many times. Dan’s promotion of Peter Pan is more evidence of the M2C-promoting activities of the citation cartel.]
 
  • If Neville wants to call writing a blog under a pseudonym using “a fake blogger persona,” then I’m afraid to tell him that many blogs are pseudonymous, many famous authors have written under pseudonyms, and even many early American Founders wrote pseudonymously. (I certainly don’t consider this blog to be on the level of Thomas Paine’s anonymously published Common Sense, of course.) As I’ve stated before, I used a pseudonym to protect myself from unstable people—a decision that has now proven itself to be prophetic, as I’ll explain in a moment.
 
[As I’ve said, I preferred the “Peter Pan” persona because it was the perfect choice for a juvenile blog that never grows up. I’ve pointed out on my own blogs that I’d prefer discussions on the merits instead of focused on personalities because so many people (as we’re seeing with Mike) take personal offense when their ideas and actions are challenged. I just find it ironic (and amusing) that for years, Mike has focused on me by name while hiding behind his pseudonym. I just ignore ad hominem arguments and blogs. I figure if Mike had something worthwhile to say, he’d contact me directly and we’d have a dialog (as I did recently on this very blog).
 
  • To the best of my knowledge, I’ve never “attacked” Jonathan Neville on this blog. I’ve at times been sarcastic or snarky, but I’ve always tried to focus on his claims and assertions, not on his person. If anyone can give me examples of where I’ve “attacked” him, please let me know in the comments below; if there are legitimate examples, I’ll gladly remove them and apologize.
 
[Mike’s word thinking leaves us wondering what he considers an “attack,” but just a few paragraphs above he falsely alleged that I was a source for Bill Reel and that I’ve jumped on Bill’s “bandwagon.” I don’t know how many other things he has said because I don’t read his blog, but others have sent me excerpts that most people would consider attacks.]
 
 
[More of Mike’s word thinking.]
 
  • This is the first time that Neville has alleged that the name Neville-Neville Land “ridicules [his] family name.” It’s strange that he’s waited this long to make an issue about it; this blog has existed for over four years, and only now he’s bringing this up? It seems to me that he’s desperately seeking some opportunity to criticize me.
 
[More of Mike’s mind-reading. I’ve told him I ignore his blog. I think most rational people reading the excerpts I’ve seen would ignore it as well. It was primarily Dan Peterson’s promotion that made Mike’s blog an issue. And, frankly, I still don’t care. That Mike thinks the name of his blog is appropriate, reasonable, and productive tells me he’s not a serious contributor. Another reason why Peter Pan is an apt pseudonym.]

Amid his many other claims, Neville also asserted in his blog post:

For years, these guys have been falsely accusing Heartlanders of racist motives when it is they themselves who used a phony and racist persona to mislead their own readers and followers (and donors, in the case of Dan Peterson).

This is a rather audacious claim, considering that Rian Nelson on the FIRM Foundation’s blog has made repeated antisemitic statements, statements that Neville himself has shrugged off by writing, “Lots of people think crazy things, and normally that doesn’t matter because we recognize that none of us is perfect.”

 
[First, I don’t agree that Rian’s posts, at least the few I’ve seen, are racist in any sense of the term. But let’s say, arguendo, that his posts can be interpreted as antisemitic. After all, Mike and his friends participate under the rubric of The Interpreter, so I suppose we’re supposed to defer to their superior wisdom. 
 
As we see in Bill Reel’s video and in their other writings, Mike’s friends have long labeled Heartlanders as racists, not because of antisemitism, but because they claim Heartlanders are right-wing nationalists. Not that long ago, another Interpreter went on a podcast to make that claim after doing a newspaper interview making the same claim. So yes, the Interpreters have accused Heartlanders of racism. In fact, as we see on the video, the very reason why they created the false, racist Nygren was because they accuse Heartlanders of racism.]

Neither Jonathan Neville nor Bill Reel cared when the FIRM Foundation was posting vile, racist antisemitism on a regular basis. 

 
[More mind reading from Mike. I can’t figure out why Mike thinks I read all this stuff. I’m busy with other things. I don’t have time to read the FIRM Foundation site or much of anything else. I mainly read things people send to me. I only learned about Rian’s post after someone sent it to me when Dan publicized it. And I’m not aware of any such things being posted “on a regular basis.” The one post Dan publicized, I’m told, was a response on Facebook that Rian removed shortly after posting it. I’ve talked with Rian about this and I’m satisfied he had no racist intent, as anyone who reads his explanation can see.]
 
Only after Daniel Peterson blogged about it did Neville address it, with a response that equates to, “Yeah, that’s not great, but it’s just Rian being Rian.” But now that they think they’ve got me dead to rights, suddenly the mere mention of a fictitious Black man has them screaming “EMERGENCY! RACISM! DANGER! Actual incendiary antisemitism is something they’re happy to overlook and excuse, but merely mentioning a nonexistent Black man as part of a joke is apparently beyond the pale. Hypocrisy much?
 
[More of Mike’s false equivalency. He compares a brief Facebook response by Rian (which hardly qualifies as racist anyway), with the invention, promotion and perpetuation of an unambiguously racist false identity for Mike’s own pseudonym! And Mike’s friend created it specifically as part of his false allegation that Heartlanders are racist, as I discussed in my blog post.]

One could reasonably accuse Reel and Neville of being nothing more than deplorable opportunists.

 
[Another example of Mike not attacking me, apparently … To reiterate: for years, people have speculated about the identity of Peter Pan. Once Mike Parker’s digital fingerprints surfaced, that would and should have been the end of the speculation. Case closed. But in the interim, even according to Mike, Mike’s friend created a false, racist “true” identity of Nygren for Mike’s pseudonym and Mike not only did not object, Mike not only did not promptly disclose his true identity, but he went along with the Nygren fraud until someone found his digital fingerprints. I had nothing to do with any of this, but once I saw the video, I owed it to my own readers and everyone who has asked me about “Peter Pan” to share the information. Do I wish Mike had not participated in the Nygren fiasco? Definitely. But that was his choice.] 

And, as I’ve already stated, I’ve never used a “racist persona” in any way on any platform. Claims that I or anyone I know has done so are absolutely false.

 
[This is misdirection and wordplay. I don’t remember Bill’s video claiming that Mike “used” a racist persona. The video shows Mike knowing about the persona, not objecting to it, not unwinding it, and actually responding on behalf of it. So far, in this explanation, Mike hasn’t refuted those charges from the video.]

My personal request to Jonathan Neville

After I saw Neville’s blog post, I sent him the following email on April 18, 2023. I asked him to not share this message online out of respect for my family’s privacy, but unfortunately I’m now forced to post it publicly to provide context for Neville’s response. (I’ve made a few slight changes to my email to remove some sensitive, personal information about my family. The message and intent of the email has not been altered. You can read a screenshot of my email, with redactions.)

 
[To be clear, I did not share his email, but I did have an expectation of privacy going both ways, given his request to me not to share his.]

Brother Neville,

I notice that you have blogged approvingly about Bill Reel’s video about me.

Setting Reel’s egregiously false spin on these events aside for the moment, his video invades my privacy by discussing in general terms where I live and work. (He lives in the same part of Southern Utah that I do.) Several comments in his YouTube video have tried to dox me by providing my home address and links to information about me on my employer’s website.

I have already received several harassing messages from people who have seen the video. These I can deal with, but they have troubled my family members. They have been terrified by what sound like threats and worried about disturbed individuals showing up at our home uninvited.

I’ve already reported Reel’s YouTube video as harassing me, but it seems unlikely that they’ll do anything about it.

I’m asking you, as a fellow Latter-day Saint and on behalf of my family, to please remove your blog posts linking to Reel’s video. The less advertisement his salacious trash can get, the better.

Kind regards,

Mike Parker

Jonathan Neville’s response and attempt to blackmail me

Neville so far responded to my email three times. The first reply came on the afternoon of April 18th. (I’ve made two slight changes to his email to remove some sensitive, personal information about my family. The message and intent of the email has not been altered. You can read a screenshot of his email, with redactions.)

I certainly won’t say anything about your email here (although you felt free to publicize my private email to you), but I can’t tell if you’re serious in your request about deleting my post.

I’m sorry for your family members’ distress, but you didn’t care about the impact of your blog on my family, did you? For years, you and Dan have been ridiculing my family name. None of my children, extended family, friends, ward members, or anyone outside of your Interpreters pals thought you were funny, cute or clever (or honorable, Christian, etc.).

If you completely delete your blog, and ask Dan (and the rest of the Interpreters) to do the same with his (their) links to it, I would gladly remove my blog post because then I would have no reason to leave up my posts and links to Bill’s video that explains your blog and alter ego (Peter Pan). I could unwind my observations about Dan as well.

Then, if you’re willing, we could have a cordial and brotherly exchange of views on a neutral site. I would welcome that. And I’m sure our Church leaders would be relieved, as well.

What do you think?

Best,

Jonathan

Thirteen minutes letter, he followed up with another short message. (This has not been edited in any way. You can read a screenshot of his email.)

BTW, your email was timely. I was about to upload a follow-up post on all of this. I’ll defer that, pending your response.

Jonathan Neville does not seemingly recognize any distinctive difference between a pun that he finds personally offensive and a video that distorts the truth and exposes me and my family to unbalanced individuals who may wish to harm us. Got it.

 
[So far, I haven’t seen Mike show anything in Bill’s video that distorts the truth, although I’ve been waiting for that through this entire message he sent me.
 
I deplore any exposure of Mike and his family to “unbalanced individuals,” but it was Mike’s own actions that prompted this entire fiasco. Mike said one reason why he used the Peter Pan pseudonym was to protect his family, but that sounds like paranoia. Furthermore, according to excerpts people have sent me, while employing his “pun” Mike has accused me publicly of all kinds of things that could also expose me and my family to “unbalanced individuals.” That’s the nature of social media, unfortunately, and everyone who enters the arena knows it. I’m not saying this is a quid pro quo situation. I am saying that I’m confident no one who reads my blog would think of harassing Mike in any way, and I deplore and repudiate anyone who would do so.] 
And he will remove one blog post only if I completely delete my entire blog and ask Daniel Peterson and everyone else who has linked to it to remove their posts. I don’t know about you, but that seems a bit disproportionate to me.
 
[It’s not a question of proportion. Mike’s Peter Pan blog (because of Dan’s promotion) is the sole cause of the mess he’s created. As long as his blog is active, Bill Reel’s video retains relevance and energy. As I’ve said all along, I don’t care about Mike’s childish pseudonym and blog, but if Mike removed Peter Pan and his blog from the Internet and came clean about his activities with his friends and the Nygren persona, he could put this entire thing behind him and move forward.]

But it gets worse. On the morning of April 19, 2023, he emailed me again with the subject “Decision time”. (This has not been edited, except to redact his personal phone number. You can read a screenshot of his email, with phone number redacated.)

Hi Mike. I postponed my follow-up in post light of your request, but I have to assume your silence means you don’t want to work through this.

You may think this is all about your southern Utah dispute with Bill Reel, but thanks to Dan Peterson’s promotion of your blog, I’ve heard about Peter Pan from as far away as Europe and Australia. People deserve to know the background as Bill explained it. Unfortunately, the critics are having a field day with it. Your Peter Pan stunt has managed to give Bill a lot of credibility by reinforcing the stereotypes of LDS apologists, while making Dan and the rest of the Interpreters look like racist fools. Bill has had over 8,000 views in just 4 days, which makes it one of his biggest videos so far, and John Dehlin will undoubtedly do an episode.

This can go two ways, your choice.

One, I can accept the invites I’ve already had and do more podcasts, blogs, etc. From my perspective, the whole “Peter Pan” fiasco epitomizes the problems with the Dan Peterson approach to apologetics, so I’m happy to discuss the topic until that changes.

Two, we can use this situation as a path to reconciliation, eliminate the contention, and discuss the issues in a reasonable, friendly, cordial way that models the “unity in diversity” approach I’ve been seeking all along. That would defuse the critics and demonstrate a new, healthy, noncontentious form of apologetics.

Your choice.

What do you want to do?

Call me any time. 801-███-████.

Best,

Jonathan

This can go two ways, your choice.

Jonathan Neville has explicitly threatened me that, unless I delete my entire blog, he’ll go on anti-Mormon podcasts and attack me and my character. Not to rebut my arguments or refute my claims, but to promote the false narrative about me “as Bill [Reel] explained it.”

 
[I can see how, given Mike’s tendency to read minds, he could infer all kinds of nefarious motives on my part. But of course, everyone can read my email and see I did not say or imply that I would attack Mike or his character. As I explained at the outset, I don’t even know if the “Mike Parker” I was corresponding with is the real Mike Parker or another pseudonym for someone else. 
 
Instead, as I said in the email, I see the Richard Nygren subterfuge as only the latest in a long history of counterproductive apologetics from the Interpreters. It’s easy to see why, with activities such as those Bill exposed in his video, so many members of the Church are disgusted by this brand of apologetics. That has been my point all along–seeking for a new model for dialog and understanding. And, actually, in my view it is Dan Peterson who compounded the problem by promoting “Peter Pan” and even publishing the fraud in his own Interpreter journal. 
 
Everyone can read my last paragraph and see what my preference is. But in case anyone did not catch that (as Mike apparently did not), I’ll repeat it here because I still hope for this outcome:
 
Two, we can use this situation as a path to reconciliation, eliminate the contention, and discuss the issues in a reasonable, friendly, cordial way that models the “unity in diversity” approach I’ve been seeking all along. That would defuse the critics and demonstrate a new, healthy, noncontentious form of apologetics.  
The “honorable, Christian” thing to do would have been for him to simply remove his blog post to help prevent the spread of misinformation and threats against my family. Instead, Jonathan Neville chose the nuclear option: Do what he says or he’ll go on a campaign of personal destruction using the platforms of enemies of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
 
[I started to write LOL. Think of this. Mike is actually claiming that I threatened him with a “path to reconciliation” that would “eliminate the contention” and allow discussion in “a reasonable, friendly, cordial way that models the ‘unity in diversity’ approach I’ve been seeking all along.” If that’s a threat, I’d love to be threatened that way. 
 
Who wouldn’t?
 
We know who, actually. Mike Parker and the rest of the Interpreters who prefer the Dan Peterson approach of sarcasm, confrontation, contention, and taking personal offense.]

For years, Neville and his associates have misrepresented and abused fellow Latter-day Saints. He’s been dishonest and stabbed people in the back whenever they have tried to open a dialog with him. Now he’s allowing himself to be used as a tool by anti-Mormon critics who want to destroy everything he supposedly believes just to get back at me for supposedly hurting his feelings. This tells me everything I need to know about his moral character.
 
[Another example of not attacking, apparently…. 
 
I’ve been seeking dialog for years, pushing on a string. In response, I get the level of criticism exemplified by this very message from Mike. But that’s okay. I’m fine with people believing whatever they want. I just want people to make informed decisions. If this Peter Pan disaster moves things in that direction, great. If it leaves us with the status quo, with our LDS apologists and self-appointed Interpreters continuing to act as gate-keepers who resist and fear open, reasonable dialog, it is what it is.]

Jonathan Neville and Bill Reel accuse me of being a racist because of a joke that I myself didn’t make, didn’t repeat, and didn’t do anything to disseminate. Meanwhile, Neville has hand-waved away explicit and repeated antisemitic statements made by one of his own friends and associates with the excuse that “people are complicated.” His hypocrisy knows no bounds.
 
[Here, finally, Mike disputes something he claims is in the video. Except Mike chose his words carefully because the video never says Mike personally made the joke or disseminated it. By not disputing the video (which he couldn’t, given the evidence) Mike concedes that he did not object to the creation of Richard Nygren, he didn’t defuse the situation by coming clean with his true identity, and he perpetuated the false racial persona by responding on behalf of Nygren and allowing Dan Peterson’s Interpreter to publish the fraud by listing Mike Parker and Peter Pan as separate contributors to Interpreter articles (which Book of Mormon Central dutifully republished).]
My attempt to correspond with him was a mistake, as he is clearly an unprincipled individual.
 
[Mike’s mistake was not agreeing to seek reconciliation and a better model for apologetics generally and handling differences of opinion specifically, while insisting on preserving his Peter Pan blog that caused the problem in the first place.]

Mr. Neville: Please go ahead and ally yourself with anti-Mormons; this will help people like me warn the Saints about what kind of person you really are.

Another non-attack, apparently…. This is typical of the other “non attacks” Mike has made in the excerpts people have sent me over the years.

 
To be clear, I am not “allied” with “anti-Mormons.” Quite the contrary, as anyone who has heard me speak or has read my blogs, books, articles, etc. knows. 
 
That said, I trust that anyone who reads this entire post will empathize with the former apologists such as Bill Reel who came to their senses and rejected Mike’s brand of mind-reading, accusations, offense-taking, and one-sided internecine acrimony.
 
My difference with Bill, assuming he is “anti-Mormon” in some sense as Mike claims, is that while I reject some of the narratives promoted by the Interpreters involved in this Peter Pan saga, I do so because I still believe what Joseph and Oliver claimed, not because I reject what they claimed.
 
It seems obvious that there is a spectrum between accepting what Joseph and Oliver claimed and rejecting what they claimed. I accept what they claimed. I presume Bill (and other former apologists who have left the Church or are PIMO) rejects what they claimed. 
 
In the middle are the Interpreters who reject some of what Joseph and Oliver said, but not everything. They employ all kinds of sophistry and obfuscation to justify their positions. And again, that’s fine with me. People can believe whatever they want.
 
But as this Peter Pan episode demonstrates, the Interpreters are prickly. They seem insecure and defensive to me. They resort to word games, the way Mike never disputed what Bill’s video actually presented but instead carefully chose words to deny things the video didn’t claim.
 
By now, everyone knows that I advocate an approach based on multiple working hypotheses. I’d like to see all the known facts laid out for everyone to see and agree upon. From there, everyone can articulate their assumptions, inferences, theories, and hypotheses (my FAITH model). That approach focuses on understanding one another instead of trying to argue about who is right or wrong.
 
So far, neither the LDS apologists (especially the Interpreters) nor the critics have been willing to engage in such an approach. Instead, they are constantly taking potshots at one another.
 
We could say they are all acting like Peter Pan.
 
I still hope that someday they’ll grow up.
 
Then we could all enjoy unity in diversity, whatever our beliefs.

The blog stays up.
 
[of course…]

Mike Parker [“Peter Pan”]

Source: About Central America

Mike Parker clarifies, Part V

This is the fifth and final part of the Mike Parker clarification. This part focuses on the translation of the Book of Mormon: SITH vs U&T.

For previous parts, see the entries on this blog, starting with Part I, here:

https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2023/04/mike-parker-clarifies-part-i.html

Again, I appreciate Mike’s willingness to discuss these issues, and I think he has done a good job summarizing the SITH position. I welcome any additional input by other SITH advocates, if any.

Jonathan Neville

Jonathan Neville’s synopsis of
Dan Peterson, Mike Parker, Steve Smoot, Jack Welch, Royal
Skousen, and their followers and donors

Mike Parker
(who has neither followers nor donors)

Witnesses
who rejected the leadership of Brigham Young, such as David Whitmer and Emma
Smith, are less credible than what Joseph and Oliver (and
their successors) said, so even if Joseph Smith dictated words while looking
at the stone in the hat (SITH), this was a demonstration, not the translation
of the Book of Mormon.

Witnesses
who rejected the leadership of Brigham Young, such as David Whitmer and Emma
Smith, are more credible than what Joseph and Oliver (and
their successors) said, so we know that, instead of using the U&T and the
plates, Joseph Smith merely read words that appeared on the stone in the hat
(SITH).

1. What
eyewitnesses to the translation of the Book of Mormon believed about
succession in the presidency of the Church is immaterial to their credibility
as witnesses of the translation process. (The same principle applies in the
law: A witness to a crime cannot be ignored or rejected just because he is a
communist, a MAGA Trump supporter, or a flat-earther.) Not one single
eyewitness to the translation process ever denied that Joseph Smith was
inspired by God to translate the Book of Mormon.

2. The
witnesses—Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, Emma Smith, David
Whitmer, and others—are equally credible, and their statements
must be examined and understood in the context of when, how, and why they
were made. Dismissing an eyewitness’s testimony because the content of that
testimony does not fit one’s hypothesis is a fatal error that reflects a
biased, prejudiced methodology.

3. No
one who accepts the overwhelming number of eyewitness testimonies that
Joseph did use a seer stone to translate has ever claimed
that Joseph “merely read words that appeared” to him; rather, Joseph’s early
revelations clearly indicate that the translation process also required
study, prayer, and spiritual confirmation, as described by the revelation to
the Prophet Joseph in 
D&C 9.

4. Also,
no one is claiming that the seer stone was not a sacred consecrated object at
the time the Book of Mormon was translated, nor is anyone asserting that the
translation could have been accomplished without the gift of seership from
God. On the contrary, both the interpreters and other seer
stones worked through the gift and power of God.

5. No
firsthand eyewitnesses or secondhand accounts (or any later Church leaders,
for that matter) have ever suggested that Joseph Smith “demonstrated” the
translation process to curious individuals by using a seer stone in a hat.
Jonathan Neville’s claim that Joseph did this is 
an ad hoc hypothesis, completely lacking in any
evidence whatsoever and invented solely to resolve the problem of the
multitude of eyewitness statements that Joseph used a seer stone to translate
the Book of Mormon in Harmony and in Fayette.

Discussion:

Mike: 1. What eyewitnesses to the translation of the Book of Mormon believed about succession in the presidency of the Church is immaterial to their credibility as witnesses of the translation process. (The same principle applies in the law: A witness to a crime cannot be ignored or rejected just because he is a communist, a MAGA Trump supporter, or a flat-earther.) Not one single eyewitness to the translation process ever denied that Joseph Smith was inspired by God to translate the Book of Mormon.

My Response: Mike makes a good point that the credibility of the SITH witnesses is not contingent on their support of Brigham Young, so in a sense that is a gratuitous qualifier on my part. But that support is a relevant factor because it goes to witness bias and motivation. Brigham Young said Emma was a liar. Brigham obviously disagreed with David Whitmer’s characterization of Joseph Smith as a fallen prophet, etc. The larger point is how to balance the relative credibility of the various witnesses. 

Mike starts with an assumption that drives the rest of his argument; i.e., that the SITH witnesses were “eyewitnesses to the translation.” Even assuming they were actually eyewitnesses, and they accurately reported what they observed, and their statements were accurately recorded, the underlying question is, what did they observe? 

I’m not saying it is unreasonable for Mike and other SITH proponents to assume these witnesses observed the actual translation. I’m fine with them believing that if they want to. No problem at all.

For me, though, SITH doesn’t make sense and doesn’t fit the evidence. 

Because Joseph and Oliver said Joseph translated the record with the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates, I think it is inconsistent to say that the SITH witnesses observed the actual translation for all the reasons I’ve explained. Some readers here may be unaware of my reasons, and I don’t have time to rehash them all here (they’re laid out in my book A Man that Can Translate), but as one example, Joseph said he was commanded not to show the Urim and Thummim or the plates. 

42 Again, he told me, that when I got those plates of which he had spoken—for the time that they should be obtained was not yet fulfilled—I should not show them to any person; neither the breastplate with the Urim and Thummim; only to those to whom I should be commanded to show them; if I did I should be destroyed. 

(Joseph Smith—History 1:42)

I don’t think it’s rational to assume God gives pointless commandments. If the only thing Joseph needed to produce the Book of Mormon was a stone he found in a well, God’s commandment here was superfluous. (Of course, under SITH the Urim and Thummim was superfluous in the first place, which is another problem.) Is it reasonable for God to threaten Joseph with destruction if he showed the U&T when Joseph didn’t need the U&T in the first place? 
I get the argument that this was some sort of test of obedience; i.e., God gave Joseph the U&T and commanded him not to show anyone, but then, like Abraham’s ram in the thicket, gave him a way out with the seer stone. If that’s what people want to believe, fine. Be my guest.
But the SITH position is based on the mere assumption that the witnesses actually observed the actual translation, and it’s that assumption that I challenge.
_____

Mike: 2. The witnesses—Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, Emma Smith, David Whitmer, and others—are equally credible, and their statements must be examined and understood in the context of when, how, and why they were made. Dismissing an eyewitness’s testimony because the content of that testimony does not fit one’s hypothesis is a fatal error that reflects a biased, prejudiced methodology.

My Response. I absolutely agree with Mike’s second sentence. But the inverse is also true; i.e., “accepting an eyewitness’s testimony because the content of that testimony does not fit one’s hypothesis is a fatal error that reflects a biased, prejudiced methodology.”

I infer from Mike’s comment that he thinks I have dismissed an eyewitness’s testimony for ideological reasons. Mike doesn’t tell his readers that in the first edition of one of my books (Whatever Happened to the Golden Plates), I actually embraced SITH for the translation in Fayette. It wasn’t until readers pointed out additional information and perspective that I changed my mind on that–again, following the evidence.

[Actually, I don’t see any indication that Mike tells his readers about my intellectual curiosity and flexibility in the face of new evidence and better arguments. After all, for decades I accepted M2C until I learned better.]

I also agree with much of Mike’s first sentence, but not his assertion that all the witnesses are “equally credible.” The reason is simple. The credibility of the witnesses is one thing, but mainly we are dealing with the credibility of their statements. We have formally published, first-hand statements from the two main participants, Joseph and Oliver, that are consistent, unequivocal, and unambiguous. From Martin, Emma, and David, we have mostly unpublished or second-hand statements, usually quoted out of context. The exception, of course, is David’s 1887 booklet, “An Address to all believers in Christ.”

SITH proponents commonly quote one paragraph, out of context, from page 12.

https://archive.org/details/addresstoallbeli00whit/page/12/mode/2up

Then they ignore the rest of the booklet, which accuses Joseph Smith of all kinds of heresy as a fallen prophet. David’s overall point is that Joseph had a gift of using a seer stone to produce the Book of Mormon but never received the Priesthood, never received revelations that were meant to be published or binding, etc. Obviously, Joseph and Oliver were the only two witnesses who could and did contradict David’s narrative about the restoration of the Priesthood and temple keys. It’s a simple, binary choice: who is more credible on that issue, David or Joseph and Oliver?

I think Joseph and Oliver.

But Joseph and Oliver also contradicted David’s narrative about SITH. 

For me, it’s irrational to accept David’s assertion on one point simply because we agree with it, while rejecting his assertions on other points simply because we disagree with them.

IOW, we’re back to Mike’s second sentence.

In my analysis, I’ve shown the factual reasons for my conclusions about the relative credibility of the various witnesses. It involves careful analysis of their statements and “the context of when, how, and why they were made.”

Reasonable people can disagree in making such an analysis, and I’m fine with that. 

I just don’t think the SITH proponents have given people the full context or explained the implications of their deference to David Whitmer.

I’ve done the same analysis for Emma, Martin, and the other witnesses, as anyone can read in my books.

_____

Mike: 3. No one who accepts the overwhelming number of eyewitness testimonies that Joseph did use a seer stone to translate has ever claimed that Joseph “merely read words that appeared” to him; rather, Joseph’s early revelations clearly indicate that the translation process also required study, prayer, and spiritual confirmation, as described by the revelation to the Prophet Joseph in D&C 9.

My Response: I suppose “overwhelming” is in the eye of the beholder, but a handful of statements from a few witnesses, mostly related decades after the fact and in the context of refuting the Spalding theory, is the opposite of “overwhelming” to me. 

I also suppose the accumulation of David Whitmer’s statements could be considered “overwhelming” if they were consistent, but they are not. Besides, David was not even a scribe, and he specifically acknowledged he was not present for most of the translation in the Whitmer home (and none of the translation in Harmony). 

The second part of Mike’s sentence conflates the statements of his eyewitnesses with the scriptural passage that itself contradicts the SITH narrative. Nothing in D&C 9 suggests or implies that Joseph would read words off a stone in a hat. D&C 10 instructs Joseph to translate the engravings on the plates. 

I realize there are many nuances of the SITH narrative that propose varying levels of effort required. Some say the exact words appeared on the stone, down to the spelling. Others say the words were sort of more loose somehow. The common thread, however, is that Joseph read words that appeared on the stone, which is all I wrote in my summary. 

That said, I can see how Mike could reasonably interpret the term “merely” to remove the element of spiritual preparation, so I’ll omit that qualifier in the future.

_____

Mike: 4. Also, no one is claiming that the seer stone was not a sacred consecrated object at the time the Book of Mormon was translated, nor is anyone asserting that the translation could have been accomplished without the gift of seership from God. On the contrary, both the interpreters and other seer stones worked through the gift and power of God.

My Response: By “no one,” I infer Mike means no SITH advocates. There is no historical record that the seer stone was ever consecrated before Joseph used it (or after, for that matter, at least not during Joseph’s lifetime). 

In my view, had the seer stone (assuming we know which one he allegedly used) been “consecrated” before Moroni gave Joseph the Urim and Thummim, then Moroni’s instructions are even more problematic because Joseph wouldn’t have needed the U&T even for the 116 pages (contrary to what Emma said). 

Also, lots of people (mainly but not exclusively nonbelievers) assert that the Book of Mormon could have been produced without the gift of seership. Using the term “translation” to describe SITH is problematic, but that’s a separate issue not raised here. 

Once people embark on the idea that Joseph produced the text of the Book of Mormon by reading words off a stone (albeit with spiritual preparation), they have detached the text from ancient origins, rendered superfluous the narrative of abridging and preserving plates, and as we just discussed, turned the U&T into a meaningless instrument whose only purpose was to test whether Joseph would be destroyed because he disobediently showed it to someone. 

A text transmitted from words off a stone could have any imaginable origin, good or bad. True, a seer stone could work through the gift and power of God, but right in our own scriptures we have an example of a seer stone working through other forces. 

Most importantly, Joseph never said his seer stone worked by the gift and power of God; instead, he linked the gift and power of God only to the plates and the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates.

At its core, the SITH narrative contradicts what Joseph and Oliver said as well as the plausibility of the text itself. 

_____

Mike: 5. No firsthand eyewitnesses or secondhand accounts (or any later Church leaders, for that matter) have ever suggested that Joseph Smith “demonstrated” the translation process to curious individuals by using a seer stone in a hat. Jonathan Neville’s claim that Joseph did this is an ad hoc hypothesis, completely lacking in any evidence whatsoever and invented solely to resolve the problem of the multitude of eyewitness statements that Joseph used a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon in Harmony and in Fayette.

My Response: As Mike knows, but doesn’t tell his readers, I cited Gurley, who interviewed the witnesses and said Joseph used the seer stone to satisfy the curiosity of his followers. I also cited all the available evidence, including the so-called “multitude of eyewitness statements.” 

I don’t see this “multitude” of statements as a problem. What I see as a problem is the SITH proponents ignoring and/or disputing what Joseph and Oliver specifically said about the translation.

Source: About Central America

Welcoming dialogue about disagreements

Jacob Hess wrote an important article titled “Perspective: Scholarship that takes the sacred seriously: My 4 take-aways from a BYU conference exploring how it would change academic disciplines to draw upon gospel teachings as foundational”

It is well worth reading.

https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2023/4/20/23688354/byu-conference-highlights-scholarship

The excerpt below pertains to the subject of this blog; i.e., welcoming dialogue about disagreements:

_____

3. Welcoming dialogue about disagreements

Students in various academic contexts are increasingly worried about raising religious or other views that might be perceived as controversial. Some fear that standing up for increasingly countercultural religious ideas necessarily means “driving wedges.” Professor Stephen Yanchar noted how even raising honest questions a la critical thinking “has a reputation of being an attack.” 

But he insisted this work of grappling over truth on college campuses, religious or not, can all be “loving, kind and gentle — a part of relationship building.” …

The fact that profound disagreements have become so scary at universities — the very place dedicated to hashing out different perspectives in a search for truth — highlights the unique opportunity to model a different way, perhaps especially at a place like BYU with a greater political balance than many other college campuses.

“Yes, people will disagree … and we can talk. But at least we’ll be having the discussions,” said Williams, who has spent his career encouraging a deeper conversation about unquestioned assumptions in psychology. “What could be more important than having these conversations with fellow believers in a spirit of respect and love?” 

“Those who fear” this kind of searching dialogue, Yanchar suggested, “have overstated its dangers.”

Source: Book of Mormon Concensus