Author: Jonathan Neville

The problem is organization.

You can search for terms, of course, and many people do that. But with so many posts, you may get more search hits than you can reasonably manage.

I’m organizing the blog by pages. The first page shows the basic graphic for the two sets of plates, here: http://bookofmormonwars.blogspot.com/p/the-two-sets-of-plates-schematic.html

Soon I’ll have a page for FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions).

If there are questions you think I haven’t answered already, email them.

It may be the “largest database,” but since it misleads members of the Church, what good is a large database? A smaller, accurate database would be more effective.

FairMormon does some good work in many areas, but they also contribute to the confusion and loss of faith that we see happening in many cases because of their strict adherence to the Mesoamerican theory of Book of Mormon geography.

Take a look at this part of the “largest database of faithful answers.” FairMormon is a gift to anti-Mormon web pages in several respects, but especially when it comes to Book of Mormon geography.

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/New_World/Hill_Cumorah#Question:_Where_is_the_Hill_Cumorah.3F

The first thing they do is say “The Church has no official position on any New World location described in the Book of Mormon.” To support this, they cite the phony fax from the “Office of the First Presidency,” here:
https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Statements

I’ve previously shown here http://bookofmormonwars.blogspot.com/2016/11/how-to-create-some-doctrine.html that this “fax” is plagiarized from the entry in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. That entry was written by David Palmer, who cites his own book to support the article. It’s classic citation cartel practice, and you’ll see more from Brother Palmer in this FairMormon article.
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As you read the FairMormon article on Cumorah, you’ll notice a few key points.

1. FairMormon never cites Letter VII because they don’t want members of the Church to know that Joseph and Oliver unequivocally identified the New York hill Cumorah as the site of the final battles of the Jaredites and Nephites. This is why you can’t trust FairMormon, and why so many members of the Church go to anti-Mormon web sites, which do explain Letter VII and how the LDS scholars and educators repudiate Joseph and Oliver to promote their Mesoamerican theories.

2. FairMormon claims David Whitmer, one of the 3 witnesses, was a liar (they use the euphemism to explain their rejection of his oft-repeated statement by saying “some historians question its accuracy”). This is the same approach that has led to the suppression of David Whitmer’s testimony in other media, as I’ve shown and will show again soon.

3. FairMormon refuses to quote modern prophets and apostles who have spoken about Cumorah being in New York and instead claim that “Since the 1950s, opinion among Book of Mormon scholars has increasingly trended toward the realization that the Nephite Cumorah and the Hill in New York cannot be the same.” FairMormon and many other LDS scholars and educators frequently claim the scholars know more than the prophets and apostles, so this is not unusual. Here, they quote Elder Dallin H. Oaks, as if he supports the two-Cumorahs theory!

4. FairMormon refuses to quote what President Joseph Fielding Smith said on at least two occasions. Referring to the two-Cumorahs theory that FairMormon promotes, President Smith said, “This modernistic theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years. Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon.” Instead of quoting President Smith, FairMormon quotes criticism of him by a Mesoamerican proponent, and then supports it with 40-year-old hearsay from a student in a class at BYU.

5. FairMormon quotes Brother Palmer’s “geographic conditions” for the Hill Cumorah that include the self-serving requirements for volcanoes and no cold or snow. The Mesoamerican theory depends on its own retranslation of the text anyway (i.e., horses are tapirs, towers are huge stone pyramids, etc.), but these “requirements” for Cumorah have led to the comical search for Cumorah in Southern Mexico that has consumed the time and effort of many people for over 100 years. Worse, these requirements rely on the premise that Joseph and Oliver were ignorant speculators who misled the Church.
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You can read the rest of the article and see the other logical and factual fallacies, but I point out the five above to explain why, if you have people who want to know about the Church, or people who have questions about the Book of Mormon, you should not send them to FairMormon.

“Respected Sir I would in form you that I arrived at home on sunday morning the 4th after having a prosperous Journey, and found all well the people are all friendly to <us> except a few who are in opposition to ev[e]ry thing unless it is some thing that is exactly like themselves.” (original spelling)

Over the last couple of years as I’ve been involved with questions about the Book of Mormon historicity and geography, as well as Church history, I’ve noticed two main themes.

The historians generally want to get the history right. They don’t have an agenda other than accuracy. Naturally, many of them were taught a particular point of view about Church history, and these traditions endure, as I’ve shown in the Joseph Smith Papers, the Church history museum, and other places. But for the most part, historians are dedicated to accuracy. They embrace all evidence and seek to reconcile it all, as much as possible.

That’s definitely not what I’ve experienced with the Mesoamerican proponents.

This group, typified by the “Book of Mormon Archaeological Forum” which owns Book of Mormon Central, by their own admission, has the goal “to increase understanding of the Book of Mormon as an ancient Mesoamerican codex.” They are not just uninterested in evidence that contradicts their goal; they actively oppose it.

As Joseph expressed it, they “are in opposition to everything unless it is some thing that is exactly like themselves.”

Consequently, the pursuit of consensus about Church history has a high likelihood of success. People dedicated to accuracy and consideration of all relevant material should be able to reach a consensus about the facts, at a minimum, and hopefully about the most reasonable inferences as well.

Obviously, there are critics of the Church who claim to know all the facts and yet infer different motivations, thereby reaching different conclusions, but to the extent these inferences are spelled out, people can make informed choices. In my experience, few of the critics have all the facts. They find enough to support their doubts and stop seeking. I’d be interested in any critics who know all the facts about the two sets of plates and reach different conclusions, for example.

With respect to Book of Mormon geography, however, we have the most prominent group of LDS scholars and educators whose main goal is “to increase understanding of the Book of Mormon as an ancient Mesoamerican codex.” (This goal appears to be shared by Mesomania Meridian Magazine, Mesomania BYU Studies, The Mesomania Mormon Interpreter, the Mesomania Maxwell Institute, and other such publications.)

Of course, one could say that Moroni’s America is dedicated to “increase understanding of the Book of Mormon as a history of North America,” but I don’t think the two situations are parallel.

First, I accepted the Mesoamerican material for decades before new information helped change my mind. A person who has never changed his/her mind ought to wonder why other once like-minded people have.

Second, I did not start out with the goal of presenting a “North American” setting. I started with the goal of understanding what Joseph and Oliver taught, and then seeing if the text described what they claimed. That goal could have led me to a setting of New York state or all of the Western Hemisphere, and anything in between. In fact, it could have led to a Mesoamerican setting.

But it didn’t.

This shows the fundamental difference between my approach and that of the Mesoamerica proponents. I start with what Joseph and Oliver said and see if the text can be interpreted to support their claims. Then I look at anthropology, geography, archaeology, geology, etc. Everything seems to fit quite nicely.

The Mesoamerican approach (as well as the Baja, Chile, Peru, Malaysia, and other non-New York Cumorah approaches) start with interpreting the text and then seeking a place where it fits. In my view, this is not just unwise. It is nonsensical. The text is vague enough to support any number of possible settings. Perhaps an infinite number, but surely a number in excess of 100.

That’s why the Lord told us where Cumorah was.

This all boils down to the reality that until members of the Church reach a consensus on Cumorah, we will never reach a consensus on the rest of the Book of Mormon geography.

Conclusion: Let’s reach a consensus on Church history, which is doable.

Then let’s reach a consensus about Cumorah, which should be doable.

Then, let’s all work together to see how the New York Cumorah fits.

Mormon 2:29 – And the Lamanites did give unto us the land northward, yea, even to the narrow passage which led into the land southward. 

French – Et les Lamanites nous donnèrent le pays situé du côté du nord, oui, jusqu’au passage étroit qui menait au pays situé du côté du sud.

Notice how in French, both are translated as passages, even though the term passe is the French translation of the English pass. 

Alma 63:5 – launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

French – et le lança dans la mer de l’ouest, près de la langue étroite qui menait au pays situé du côté du nord.

Ether 10:20 – And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land.

French – Et ils construisirent une grande ville près de la langue étroite de terre, près de l’endroit où la mer divise le pays.

Both of these are translated as a “narrow tongue,” not as a “narrow neck.”

Alma 22:32 – the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.

French – le pays de Néphi et le pays de Zarahemla étaient presque entourés d’eau, une étroite bande de terre existant entre le pays situé du côté du nord et le pays situé du côté du sud.

Notice here that the French does not say a “small” neck of land, but a “narrow strip of earth.” This seems to refer back to verse 27, another narrow strip, but it also links it to the previous narrow places.

Alma 22:27 – by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, 

French – par une étroite bande de désert, qui allait de la mer de l’est jusqu’à la mer de l’ouest,

The French translation uses “désert” for wilderness (which means desert in English) instead of a more accurate translation, “région sauvage.”

But that isn’t happening.

The proponents of Mesoamerica don’t even want Church members to know about the North American setting. This is easy to understand.
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As it stands today, there are two basic groups.

Group A thinks Cumorah is somewhere other than in New York. Adherents think Joseph and Oliver were wrong when they identified the hill in New York as Cumorah. They think scholarship can identify the Hill Cumorah and other sites.

Group B thinks Cumorah is in New York, based on what Oliver Cowdery wrote in Letter VII. Adherents think Joseph and Oliver knew Cumorah was in New York because they had visited the repository of Nephite records in the hill, because of the two sets of plates, because Moroni identified it as Cumorah, etc.
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I don’t think the choice between these two views is even close. Most members of the Church, when presented with the choice, choose Joseph and Oliver over the scholars.

This explains why the scholars and educators who promote the Mesoamerican setting refuse to present their theory alongside the North American setting. The only way their theories endure is by excluding the North American setting from their publications, conferences, web pages, and classrooms.

Instead, you’ll read 2D arguments about which way the river Sidon flows, which “correspondences” are closer to which interpretation of the text, etc.

But you won’t read the 3D argument about accepting or rejecting Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.
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The current status of the consensus is this: people who accept what Joseph and Oliver said about Cumorah accept the North American setting, while people who think Joseph and Oliver didn’t know what they were talking about accept another setting (Mesoamerica, Baja, Panama, Chile, Peru, Malaysia, etc.).

IOW, the status hasn’t changed much.

Except that thousands of people are changing their minds about the setting, switching from Mesoamerica to North America.